Lincoln,

I found your blog today and I love it! I stumbled upon it searching about Lou Engle, as someone from my (Catholic) church prayer list sent out his note on fasting today for Prop 8. Knowing that the only ‘The Call” I had been aware of was the awesome band in the 80′s, I figured I should check it out. I laughed my AO and nodded throughout your entire post from back in July on Engle and Upton. I couldn’t agree more with your statements. And anyone who uses the term Batsh*t Crazy is always tops in my book (as it is a term my husband lovingly uses in reference to me). BTW, I met my husband online back in the Prodigy, AOL, Commpuserve days. That girl you are looking for is out there. My dh’s blog (which he hasn’t written on it a bit, but still has some great posts) is:http://www.therosses.net/templar/ You both have similar takes on things.

Take care, I will be following your blog.
Rachel

“It’s about finding my place in a world that doesn’t want me, and my struggle to accept the truth that I am unwanted because I don’t belong here. It’s about understanding God’s will for my life and struggling to believe His promises, even when none of them have come true.”

Would you like me to call you a waaaa-mbulance?
You must be wanted by God or you wouldn’t be here. He promises hardship and suffering to believers while in this life, so that promise, by your own posts is certainly true. God always answers prayer, sometimes the answer is no. I don’t like it any more than you do, but that’s the deal. We get life, God gets to call the shots.

Well, maybe I’m being a little harsh, just got a bee in my bonnet today. People have been behaving unreasonably around me lately and I’m tired of having to connect the dots for them.

Wow…Call Me Mom, that IS harsh. Linc is talking about his emotional experiences in following God, and finding his place in the world. Truth sets people free…and sometimes that truth is confronting some very ugly feelings and emotions you have about God, and life, before you can get past them and move on. That shouldn’t be derided, it should be applauded.

Else-wise, we will get lots of zombified seeker-sensitive types with giant Joel Osteen grins sitting around pretending everything is peachy, and has always been peachy…and be totally impotent in the face of sin and the enemy. Dealing with these issues makes you a better and more effective Christian. Once Linc gets victory over these feelings and circumstances, he can be a powerful witness to people going through the same thing. You need to be careful, because expressing harsh comments such as the above could certainly send people running back into the world, and away from God.

Wow,
Casey, I’m insensitive? I share the hard won wisdom of my own struggles and reproach Mr. Adams for questioning God’s will in putting him here, with an appropriate aside to let him know that I am having challenges of my own and you come on and call me a self righteous little know it all and question my faith in the bargain? You’re on dangerous theological ground.

Mr. Adams is clearly questioning God’s will in his life and, in my experience, as well as the experiences of those recorded in the Bible, such questioning is regarded by God as arrogant. My thinking was, better he should be corrected by me than God on that point. God’s lessons tend to be harsh by our standards.

Mr. Adams’ emotional experience as related in the post above that point is a wonderful sharing of who he is, spot on, but when he starts questioning God’s will, he’s looking for trouble. If you don’t know that, then might I suggest you find yourself a good Bible study on obedience to the will of God. If you can’t find one, May I suggest an in-depth study of the book of Job.

God has the right to try us as individuals and as nations to see how we will uphold His will. It is not the path of righteousness to encourage each other to wallow in self-pity over God’s will for our lives and question His wisdom in putting us here, but rather to encourage one another to persevere in doing God’s will no matter what it is or how we may suffer to accomplish His goals.
If Mr. Adams disagrees with me, he is quite erudite enough to reprimand me himself.

@Rachel: Glad you enjoy my writings. I remember the Love @ AOL days, and back then it was actually pretty good. If I had known how bad things would go downhill from there I would have doubled up my efforts to find a honey pookie pie. Oh well. I shall die with many, many regrets.

Oh, and I subscribed to your blog as well.

Oy, I’ve started a war!

@Casey: I’ve edited your comment. Be nice or I’ll send you an email virus of me prancing naked around the living room. I know you don’t want that.

@CMM: I see your points, but I’m not referring to God’s promises that we’ll suffer like dogs, more of the specific nicey promises that involves much wubs and chocolatey goodness. You mentioned Job, which is interesting because for 30 odd chapters all he did was wallow in self pity, and one of the harshest things he said during that time was that God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. He basically accused the LORD of not caring.

Jeremiah was the same way. He questioned God’s sense of justice in prospering the wicked while the righteous continued to suffer. But these things aren’t written to discourage believers, but to encourage them in knowing that what they feel is not something new, and is something even mighty men of God experienced as well. More encouraging is that when God finally speaks, He doesn’t condemn Job or Jeremiah for their words, but rather He reminds them of who He is, and that He is still and always has been in control. God understands. He knows the difference between those of us who question Him because were confused, and those of us who question him simply because we refuse to believe. When Abraham was promised a son, he laughed in God’s face. Any of us witnessing that would rebuke Abraham for this callous act, but the LORD blessed him. Such is the pattern we see in Scripture. It seems our friends and family are more judgmental and critical than the LORD tends to be, because men can only judge by outward appearances, while the LORD looks at the heart.

So when I say none of God’s promises have come true, I don’t mean to say they NEVER will. I’m in that same place where Abraham was, where you have to make a choice to either believe God for the impossible, or take matters into your own hands. It took Abraham an entire lifetime to come to that place where he had perfect faith, but in all that time the LORD was always with him. That’s why despite all my shortcomings, and I can still rest in knowing the LORD is with me too.

Mr. Adams,
You’ve found specific verses promising “much wubs and chocolatey goodness”“!? Please share,’cause I could use some chocolatey goodness myself right about now.
Job does a bit of wallowing, but throughout, asks God to show him in what particular he has failed to do God’s will. Do you recall God’s answer to Job? Job then repents of his audacity in demanding answers from the Lord, at which point he is blessed.
Leaving off Jeremiah, I think I agree that you are in the same place Abram was. When God told him”I am thy shield and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless…”
I’ll agree that there is an element of encouragement for believers in knowing that even these men who spoke to God felt hopeless at times, but I think the bigger lesson is and has always been that we are here for God’s purposes, not our own. God looked on these men with understanding and mercy becuase they recognized that basic truth and acted accordingly. Those who felt that way and turned away from doing God’s will, even temporarily…well, I didn’t want to have to wait for you to get out of that whale’s belly for another post. Selfish of me, I’ll admit, but sometimes I am. I answered your post as I did, because I thought, from your post, that you could use a reminder.
Plus, as I said tired of connecting the dots for people who should know better.
Now, about that chocolatey goodness…(You need a chocolate chip cookie emoticon to go here)

Well maybe not chocolatey goodness, but definitely plenty of milk and honey.

Do you recall God’s answer to Job? Job then repents of his audacity in demanding answers from the Lord, at which point he is blessed.

See, I disagree there. There was nothing audacious about Job wanting answers, and the LORD gave him one. When the LORD confronted Job, He spoke of His power and of two powerful creatures, making it clear that only He had power over them. I think those creatures represented Job’s trials and the LORD was telling him only He had the ability to end them.

That’s why Job said, “I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee… I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.”

It’s not wrong for a believer to question God on why prayers go unanswered or why things go wrong in their lives for no apparent reason, because that’s what virtually every man of God has ever done since the beginning of time. Those who love the LORD question him in faith, believing He will grant them an answer, even as He admonishes them in the process. (Habakkuk 2:1) But you seem to be saying I can’t ever question God AT ALL, or else He will grind me into so much dust, and that’s just not what I believe.

I think those creatures represented Job’s trials and the LORD was telling him only He had the ability to end them.

I think he was saying, I made the world and everything in it, I make the rules, and you are just as much my creature as these are, at which point Job stops questioning His will. God never tells Job why these calamities came upon him. I don’t think we will get answers in this life-”For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known” ~1Cor 13:12 -and God owes us none – but I’ll agree to disagree with you on this one.

I’m not saying you can’t question God at all or He’ll crush you. I am saying that if you question His authority over your life you’re walking on thin ice.(Especially if you have enough information to know better i.e. the king of babylon living as a donkey for 7 years or Aggrippa being struck down and eaten by worms for (was it 5 or 7 days?) for accepting the worship of people saying he was a god when he clearly knew better in the book of Acts.)

Oh, and just to be crystal clear, when I was talking about connecting the dots for people who should know better, that’s not connected to this blog post at all. I was re-reading and it occured to me that it could be read that way, so I wanted to clarify.
I enjoy the blog.
Whoa weird thing happened upon editing, Let’s see if this helps.

Okay, that last comment went astray in editing. Ummm…oops?

I am saying that if you question His authority over your life you’re walking on thin ice.

I think you read waaaaaay too much into my post before, which was in regard to promises that have not come true, and these are specific promises the LORD made to me, not generic promises that might apply to anyone. And they haven’t come true, that’s just a fact. Doesn’t mean they never will, but the delay in seeing the fulfillment of these promises causes me despair sometimes.

God spoke of two monsters to Job and then challenged Job’s ability to overcome them. That’s very telling. He was saying only He had power over them while Job could never boast the same. This wasn’t about questioning God’s will, this was about learning that there are things in this life that are so overwhelming, so perplexing and traumatic that we can’t possibly handle it on our own, and yet that’s what many people try to do. They live on the notion that God helps those who help themselves, but the story of Job tells us something else entirely.

I don’t believe that we can never have answers in this life. Ask and ye shall receive. If you want answers, the LORD will give them to you, but you have to persevere in it. You have to ask in faith and believe that the LORD is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

And yes it’s true, God does not owe us anything, but that’s an awful thing to say to anyone who endures much suffering and just wants to know why bad things happen. Telling someone for example, “The LORD doesn’t owe you an explanation for why you have cancer and why your wife died. Deal with it.” is cruel and not in keeping with the fruits of the Spirit. I really hope this is not the attitude you exhibit in real life, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. The LORD is sovereign, but He is also loving and gracious, forbearing with us even as we sin with such mercy that we can never truly understand it. That’s the God I serve, and as much as I despair sometimes and fight with Him, I am proud that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is also my LORD and Savior as well.

Oh, and you didn’t do anything wrong with editing comments. Apparently there’s a bug that’s causing things to get borked. I put a request into support to get it fixed.

these are specific promises the LORD made to me, not generic promises that might apply to anyone. And they haven’t come true, that’s just a fact. Doesn’t mean they never will, but the delay in seeing the fulfillment of these promises causes me despair sometimes

If I believed I had specific promises from God in regard to specific issues, I would not be criticizing His timing anywhere outside of prayer. May I remind you that Moses was not allowed to go into the promised land, (only to see it before he died) because of one instance of disobedience.
I may have read too much into your post, I don’t know you personally to be able to discern the attitude behind the bit I referenced in my first post. It just seemed to me that you required a good swift kick to stop wallowing and get to work. If it wasn’t appropriate, You have my apologies.

God spoke of two monsters to Job and then challenged Job’s ability to overcome them. That’s very telling. He was saying only He had power over them while Job could never boast the same

See, we differ in our interpretation here. I think the message was “I created these things and you cannot.” God has authority over us because He is our creator. Once again, I’ll agree to disagree with you on this one.

I don’t believe that we can never have answers in this life. Ask and ye shall receive.

“No” is an answer. You may ask all you like, but the decision to inform you belongs to God. That said, I don’t think that verse gives us carte blanche to demand things from God. Put in context, I believe it is referring to the availability of salvation and the availability of those things we need to do God’s will.

Telling someone for example, “The LORD doesn’t owe you an explanation for why you have cancer and why your wife died. Deal with it.” is cruel and not in keeping with the fruits of the Spirit.

That depends on the circumstances. Sometimes speaking the truth in love can seem cruel. Would I say that to someone at the funeral of their beloved-probably not. Would I say it to someone who was using those tragedies to ruin their own or someone else’s life or to question the gift of salvation or the existence or authority of God if I thought doing so would bring about the desired affect?(That of turning them back to God.) You betcha. Love is a tough business and it is not loving to encourage someone who is behaving in a dangerous manner.

That’s the God I serve

This is dangerous. It indicates that you are judging God and only accepting those of His attributes and judgments that you approve of, rather than accepting the reality of the God in the Bible. ‘God’s love cannot embrace what His holiness condemns. Men cannot pick the attributes of God they like and discard the rest.’ ~Marv Rosenthal – Executive director of Zion’s Hope

I have enjoyed the discussion and I thank you for it.

Ha ha, now I had to approve your comment for some reason. My blog has it in for you.

Read this sermon about Job. It conveys my sentiments here and though written years ago it applies even more now in these dangerous times than ever before.

And true, “no” is an answer, but does that mean, “No, I decided not to keep my promises after all, and if you don’t like it, tough?”

This is dangerous. It indicates that you are judging God and only accepting those of His attributes and judgments that you approve of

LOL That’s not it at all. You’re projecting a lot of prejudice into the discussion, and I assuming it’s because you’ve had to deal with too many people who like to use the “love” gospel as an excuse to continue a life of sin, and now you see it everywhere.

Read the sermon. Hopefully it will encourage you and give you a greater understanding of where I’m coming from.

Okay,
Real life took me away for a bit.
I read the sermon. I don’t recall anything in the book of Job that indicates that the descriptions of God, behemoth or leviathan are to be taken as metaphors. Their characteristics, as described, certainly do not fit a crocodile or a hippopotamus. (I’m not an evolutionist, so I can see those descriptions fitting something of dinosaur proportions.) But again, I agreed to disagree with you on that.

I have been discussing the various aspects of a loving God with folks who think that gives them carte blanche to do whatever they like and force it on others as well.

Still have a problem with your accusing God of not having fulfilled His promises to you and declaring yourself to be unwanted.
Certainly I didn’t express my support of the fact that you are wanted in a way that Casey found to be gentle and loving, but I was having a challenging day and thought you well capable of understanding the intent and disregarding the rather curt and somewhat facetious presentation.

I read the sermon. I don’t recall anything in the book of Job that indicates that the descriptions of God, behemoth or leviathan are to be taken as metaphors. Their characteristics, as described, certainly do not fit a crocodile or a hippopotamus.

You completely missed the point of the sermon, LOL

Oh well, I tried.

Well, maybe I don’t agree to disagree.

I didn’t miss the point of the sermon. I simply disagree, doctrinally, with that part of the sermon that presents those things as metaphors. To present something as a metaphor when there is no Biblical support to do so, makes the reasoning suspect.
If the foundation of one’s logic is incorrect, one cannot help but come to incorrect conclusions.

The supposition that the appearance of God and these creatures was a metaphor led to the conclusion that Job is being asked to control these beasts and is unable to do so just as we must acknowledge our inability to control certain aspects of our lives.
If, however, one accepts the appearances and descriptions as literal, one might more reasonably come to the conclusion that God is declaring: His authority over all created things, including Job; that we are to be obedient to God’s will regardless of our troubles; that we are to be secure in the knowledge that God is in control of all things, and; that even our troubles contribute to the proper outcome of God’s plans whether or not we know the reasons behind them.

My grandmother once told me that it was easier to get her employees to do what they were supposed to if she could explain the reasoning behind what she wanted them to do. My grandfather was of the opinion, that since he was paying them, it wasn’t their job to question his orders, but to do as they were told. Both methods had their ups and downs. Grandma’s method tended to work best when the workers were independent and in agreement with her reasoning. Grandpa’s method worked best when he was present, but often left the workers complaining about how he wanted things done because that wasn’t the way they would do it. I think of that when I’m having challenges and tell myself that if God is expecting obedience without an explanation, it’s because He’s on-site, as it were. (Not Biblically supported, just my own little comforting superstition.)

So, I do not agree that we are to compare our skills and abilities to God’s and upon finding ourselves overwhelmed are to give up control of the struggle to God (Which, if I’m understanding the sermon correctly is what that pastor is saying), but rather that we are to approach everything from a “God created the world and everything in it and has complete authority over it” perspective that: informs us that God always has control; instructs us to be obedient to God’s will in our lives; recognizes that God’s plans for our lives are not the same as our plans, and; that God’s plans are better than our plans.

Although I do agree with the pastor that we, (Christians) as a church, will soon be facing persecution far beyond what most of us have been equipped to deal with.

Again, I am enjoying the discussion. So few these days even know what they believe, much less why. It’s encouraging to find one who does. Many thanks for the encouragement in that alone.

I think you got too hung up on the metaphors in my view. “He used METAPHORS, he must be a tool of the devil!!” You misunderstood what the pastor was getting at, but oddly enough you arrived at the same basic conclusions he did, only for some reason you couldn’t see it. Very strange. Your logic seems cold and calculating as well, so I’m guessing you must be a Baptist.

I get the impression you think we are not to ever question God at all about anything, and you treat with contempt those who do. I don’t find this biblically sound partly because it paints with too broad a brush, and partly because God does eventually reveal His reasons and purpose to those who are faithful, whether it’s out of love or mercy. I know He would prefer that we just trust Him without pleading for answers all the time, but if we persevere, we will eventually get there. We don’t always have to be in the dark either, and there are various promises in Scripture that affirm this too. It doesn’t mean we’ll get an answer right away, and sometimes it may take a lifetime, but the answers do come. Jacob was left in the dark about his son Joseph, grieving all those years and not knowing he was alive. He could have reviled against the LORD when he found out the truth, but when all was said and done it became clear as day why things had to happen the way they did.

Based on my own walk and what I learn from Scripture, trusting God to the point where you don’t need to know WHY things happen is a lifelong process. In the beginning we may cry out to God night and day for answers, but there comes a time when we learn to trust God enough that not having answers doesn’t bother us as much anymore. We can trust Him because we have faith that He loves us and because of that we just know everything’s gonna be ok. But you don’t learn something like this in a day, and I think that’s what you need to understand.

“He used METAPHORS, he must be a tool of the devil!!”

I didn’t say anything of the sort. I said he had no Biblical support for using them as metaphors, show me that support and I’ll examine it again.

Not a Baptist.

In what way have I treated you or anyone else with contempt? I saw what I believed to be an error (by which I mean something for which God will correct you because He chastises those whom He loves) in your attitude towards God and tried to correct you. I think you believe you are doing the same for me and I don’t regard your words as being contemptuous of me or my view, instead granting you the credit for being solicitous of my welfare as a fellow Christian. I’ll grant you I was grouchy at the time of the first post, but that wasn’t contempt for you, as I have mentioned repeatedly. I’m of the opinion that as long as we both believe the gospel and accept Christ’s finished work for us on the cross, then we are free to have discussions on the other bits. In my experience, folks who question God’s authority are asking for it to be demonstrated to them. Such demonstrations are not usually pleasant from our point of view, although from an eternal perspective one can imagine they are quite amusing. (Like the way the worst campouts make the best stories.) My apologies that my attempt to spare you that corrective experience appears to have offended you.

I had a bunch more written, but now I am discouraged, so I will close with these last bits.

We can trust Him because we have faith that He loves us and because of that we just know everything’s gonna be ok.

Isn’t this what I’ve been saying through this whole discussion? (Well, not the He loves us part, but I thought I could assume, as fellow Christians, that such was mutually understood between us.)

But you don’t learn something like this in a day, and I think that’s what you need to understand.

I was not addressing the post of a child. I was addressing your post. I have read several of your posts on faith issues and I know that you are not a baby Christian. I thought you were up to a discussion of this sort without name calling. (Baptist-used as an insult? cold and calculating? Treating people with contempt? Restating my objection to the lack of Biblical support for the use of part of scripture as a metaphor into calling the pastor who did so the devil?)I think I’m disappointed in you. I was thoroughly enjoying the discussion until this point.

I know your post was not intended to start a doctrinal discussion. My apologies for monopolizing your board with one. *going home sad*

I didn’t say anything of the sort. I said he had no Biblical support for using them as metaphors, show me that support and I’ll examine it again.

Scripture uses metaphors liberally. For me to repeat examples of it here would take too much of my time and it’s clear you would not be receptive to it, so I’ll let it drop.

Not a Baptist.

A mind like one then.

I’m not content with merely agreeing on the basics while we detract on everything else. I can tolerate it, but I’m tired of having to live with a faith-walk that puts me at odds with almost everyone else in Christendom. That’s my burden though, so I’ll have to live with it. As for name calling, I was not name calling, just making observations about how you come across to me. If you disagree that’s fine. It’s obvious though that you’re not going to receive anything I have to say, so how about we just agree to just drop it now before we start getting out our voodoo dolls and start pin pricking.

Wow! I came to this blog for a cookie and all I got was a stinkin’ theological discussion.

So whars mah cookie? :runs:

I don’t remember saying I was gonna share my cookies.

Ok, so I was researching “evil women” for a story I’m writing. That particular blog you wrote made me both *tsk* and laugh. I decided to see if you were still active cause… well, I’m nosey and like to spy on people. I enjoy looking through other peoples purses and reading locked diaries. I AM Ebil. Anyhow, you seemed to take some of your words right out of my mouth. I’ve bookmarked you, it was nice to meet you and I look forward to spying in the future. ~ truely best wishes.

Thanks for bookmarking me Anvil! I haven’t blogged for a bit since I’ve been caught up in a storm of work and other things, but I should get rolling again this week.

If you change your perspective on a situation often times that situation changes. If the world did not want you and if you truly did not belong here you wouldn’t be here.

Just a thought

Thanks for the good thoughts Vince.

All of the teachings and all of the commandments boil down to this. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. In other words, treat people the way you want to be treated. Do that and everything falls into place. Or the old school, eff with me and I eff with you.

Have a blessed day.

And that would be another apt way of putting it. LOL

Call Me Mom,
I understand the point you are trying to make. It’s something I have learned all too well. God has not promised our lives as Christians would be easy. However, dealing with your emotions is healthy. Sometimes people just need to vent. If they don’t, then they stuff the negative emotions. Emotions are not sins…it’s what you do with them that is a sin.

I know from whence I speak. I had to stuff emotions as a child because of some rather horrific things that happened to me. As an adult I have had to learn how to let myself feel.

Mr. Adams…I compliment you on having the courage to voice what we all feel at times. May God bless you for being courageous.

Thanks Gina-Marie,

I think too many bottle up their emotions because we’re all expected to put on a happy face and make like all is right in the world, and the minute we rain on other people’s parade we get censured for it. What a terrible state of affairs Christianity is in these days.